Making museums accessible for children with barriers to education with Nicky McIntosh

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Hello and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager.

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Today I'm chatting with Nicky McIntosh, a museum consultant who's working

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to make museums more accessible for children who struggle to attend school.

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But before our chat, if you haven't already, do go back and listen to

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the last episode with Beth Clare McManus about coaching in museums.

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And if you're interested in questioning techniques in museums, check out episodes

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136 and 137, where I explore key concepts from my new book, The Art Engager.

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And if you're enjoying the book, I'd love your support.

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Please consider leaving a review on Amazon or Goodreads or sharing a

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photo of your copy on social media.

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Do tag me in.

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And before we begin, I want to let you know that this is

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our final episode for 2024.

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The podcast will return on January the 16th, 2025.

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Thank you for being part of the Art Engager community this year.

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So back to today's guest, Nicky McIntosh.

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With over 25 years of experience in the UK museum sector, Nicky has worked as both

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a history curator and learning manager.

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Now a freelance museum consultant, Nicky specialises in project management and

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learning engagement across museums, heritage sites and arts organisations.

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Inspired by her own family's experiences, she's currently exploring how museums

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can better support children who can't access traditional schooling.

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And I'm excited to share that Nicky will be working with the Group for Education

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in Museums, or GEM, to create a toolkit supporting museum and galleries in their

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work with home educators and children with barriers to school attendance.

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This will be launching in spring 2025.

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So in this episode, Nicky shares her personal journey with school attendance

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challenges And how this experience inspired her to explore museum provision

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for children who can't access school.

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Through her recent Arts Council funded research project, she investigated how

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museums can better serve the estimated 1.

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5 million children in England who struggle with school attendance as

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well as home educating families.

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So we discuss the unique opportunity museums offer these audiences, practical

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strategies for engagement, and successful case studies from institutions who are

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making their spaces more inclusive.

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This episode is essential listening for museum professionals interested

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in making their organizations more accessible and inclusive.

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If you're looking to better understand how museums can support diverse

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learning needs or exploring ways to engage children facing barriers to

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education, This episode offers valuable insights and practical recommendations.

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Enjoy.

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Hi Nicky, and welcome to The Art Engager podcast.

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Hello, thanks for having me.

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You're very welcome.

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so can you tell our listeners who you are and what you do?

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Yeah, I'm Nicky McIntosh and I'm a museum consultant based in England.

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My practice is as a hybrid of museum curator, educator and historian.

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And really historic collections are at the heart of what I do.

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And are there any values that are important in your work?

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Yeah, so collections are a big value to me, and keeping that at the heart of what

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I do, so they're the unique selling point for museums and galleries, so aside from

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that, I think a really important value to me is authenticity because What I found

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over the last few years my worldview has really changed and a lot of things

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that I originally thought about the world have unraveled and discovered the

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depth of different people's experiences, particularly around neurodivergence

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and the impact that has on people.

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So I really try now to be very authentic in my work and focusing on learning that

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respects diversity of experience and also being really honest with people

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so that they can learn from my lived experience as well and making that

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available to as many people as I can.

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And you mentioned there, alluded to things having changed in the last few years.

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And this is one of many reasons I wanted to talk to you on the podcast, but I'd

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like to talk to you about how the museum and gallery sector are providing for

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children who are not accessing school.

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So can you tell us a little bit about how your personal journey with school

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attendance challenges has shaped your perspective and commitment to this work?

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Yeah, so our story begins really just before the COVID pandemic when

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our journey with special educational needs and disabilities came to light.

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And then since then we've continued to learn daily about neurodivergence

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and the ups and downs of navigating the English SEND (Special Educational

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Needs and Disabilities) system.

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And one of the major impacts of this for us was school attendance

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difficulties and The profound way that impacts the whole family.

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So it affects mental health, relationships, finances, and that's

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just quite aside from the educational impact of not being able to get into

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school because there are barriers there.

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It was quite a surprise for our family that this was happening, So it was

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very difficult, lots of things to work through, but also in our search for

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support and answers, we discovered that there was actually a huge community of

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families experiencing similar issues.

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So we weren't alone.

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And this isn't an uncommon situation to be in where children are really

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finding they can't access school like they might have done before.

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And at the same time I had a growing sort of seed of conviction that

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museums could have a role to play in supporting this growing community.

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So there are estimated about one and a half million children

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struggling to attend school.

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And this is aside from children who are electively home educated, so children who

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are still enrolled at a school, they're actually struggling to attend full time

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based on statistics from about a year ago, so it isn't a small amount at all

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and that's really what set me off on this path of thinking about my professional

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life and how it intersects with what I now knew about what was going on for a

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lot of people in homes and in, and then just trying to get to school every day.

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And I can completely empathise with what you're talking about there, Nicky.

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Having had a similar journey in our family over the last few years.

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And found it equally confusing about knowing where to turn to for help, knowing

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what support is out there, but also realizing that this is a growing concern.

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You mentioned there the figures one million young people struggling

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as I presume that's in the UK.

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And I imagine that worldwide, this is also a growing problem.

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Now, I know that you secured some funding to dive into this and explore this a

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little bit further, so can you discuss your Arts Council funded grant and what

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you were investigating and exploring?

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Yeah, so the opportunity came up to apply for a Developing Your Creative

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Practice grant through the Arts Council England, and I thought this is a great

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opportunity to test my convictions and my theory through some research and

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piloting, and look at this as a way to develop a way forward for my own work.

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So I really used this grant to discover where the gaps are in

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provision around museums and supporting children learning out of school.

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So I did this with a combination of sector research by circulating a survey

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around different museums and galleries in England to find out what's already

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happening, because I know there was already a lot of good practice happening,

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for example, for home educators, and also to find out what the barriers might be

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for those museums around doing this work.

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At the same time, I got in touch with families and did some audience

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research to see what they already do, how they already engage with museums,

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and what they might need from us.

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And then I also did some piloting and testing through some consultation

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days at a beautiful museum and gallery in Warwickshire, where we tested

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out various elements of their offer.

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And Asked families what they thought so I brought all of this together to

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create various reports and insights into what we already offer, and what

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needs to be offered, and what some of the barriers might be to doing that.

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And what did you find out?

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I can imagine there were some surprising findings.

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Yes and no.

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I got a lot of insights, but it was very affirming, really,

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of what I thought was going on.

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In that there is already a lot of great practice for home educators.

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Lots of museums already offer, for example, home educating days.

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Which are doing really well, they're always very popular.

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But also, at the same time, there isn't as much awareness of children that are

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learning out of school in other ways.

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So they may still be enrolled at school, but just struggling

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to attend, or they might be in alternative provisions and so on.

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That isn't really an audience that's that people are aware of, and they

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have done pockets of work with them, but they tend to be more short term

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funding led projects rather than a sort of sustainable everyday offer.

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And that's what I expected to find, and that's what I did find.

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But the main insights I got from the research were that there is indeed

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quite a knowledge gap in that Museums and galleries may not always understand

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the home ed and out of school audience, so they feel they want to know more

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about their needs and wants, and at the same time that families aren't always

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aware of what's on offer for them.

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So there's a big appetite on both sides for doing more, but they

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don't always know how to find out about each other in effect.

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Also various practical obstacles are often coming up for museums, things like, as

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I said, communication ways to deal with bookings and timings of sessions, and

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being cost effective, they are barriers, but only in that they need to be thought

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about differently, because it is a different kind of audience, and I think a

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lot of museums tend to either think, about using elements of their school program and

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tailoring them a bit for home educating audiences, or they'll think about offering

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their family learning program, but really it's a, has a different needs of its own.

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So I think once you start to think about it as its own separate audience,

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the barriers are not so difficult.

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Yeah, they were some of my main findings, but actually another important one was

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that there is a very high proportion of families with special educational needs

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and disabilities within the home education audience, and that came out quite strongly

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in the family research that I did.

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So a lot of the things that they need are very similar to any visitors with SEND.

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So that's something to definitely bear in mind.

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You mentioned there that there's a gap between museums and galleries wanting

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to know more about how they can create programs and initiatives with families who

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have young people who are not currently in school settings or traditional

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school settings, but also that there's a lack of communication perhaps from the

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organizations about communicating that perhaps they do have offerings that might

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be suitable for these these families.

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So what strategies would you suggest for museums to overcome some of

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these problems and get the word out?

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So I think a lot of it is about being really open with the audience

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about what they have got on offer.

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So, lots of museums might have an offer for home educated families and they'll

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put it on their websites, for example, underneath schools, and that immediately

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creates a barrier for families finding out about it, because they're not a school.

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So they may not initially know where to look for the offer so quite an

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easy way to change that is to give them their own section on a website,

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for example, or their own newsletter.

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And it's really important in acknowledging that they have their own needs and

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that they aren't small and that they are a valid audience of their own.

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So that messaging would go a long way to help.

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And then also it is difficult sometimes for museums to reach out

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to their local Home Ed communities because they operate a lot on trust.

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And it's all about finding those key people within the Home Ed circles who

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will then spread the word for you and put your information onto the right

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places on social media because a lot of the social media groups understandably,

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are closed and specifically for home ed families and so on.

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So it is about building up that trust with a few people that you

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get in touch with and they will really help you to spread the word.

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Plus also thinking about working in partnership with other agencies

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sometimes can really help because they are keyed in with some of the

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families that need some support.

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And so I think from what you're saying, it's about building

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those relationships as well.

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So really reaching out and finding where people are gathering together

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to find support and being able to build relationships, as they would

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do with a school, they would build similar relationships with the

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schools in their area to be able to promote their programs and talk about

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what they have and they can offer.

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They could do the same for parents with children who are not attending school.

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Absolutely It's just starting to reach out and make those first steps, and

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then it will just naturally flow.

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Some of the museums that I spoke to, I did some case studies with

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the type of work they were doing.

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That was how their programs grew was by for example, Letting a

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smaller home ed group use a room in the museum, just to gather.

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And from that, they started to do a bit of, well, consultation.

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What would you like us to offer in a museum?

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And then eventually that grew to running a whole arts award program,

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which they still do every year.

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There's another museum I spoke to where they didn't really have a

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learning service, but they're actually starting out their learning program by

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working with home educating families.

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So they're just doing some small group work in the galleries with them and

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building up a program, which they may then roll out to schools as well,

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it's all about starting by talking and building relationships, as you say.

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And then the families will be keen to work with you too.

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to get things right.

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Yeah, and you mentioned a couple of initiatives there.

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can you give us any more examples of museums who are doing positive things,

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who are working and co creating these programs with with families in this way?

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Yeah, so I should say it's the Tyne and Wear Museum Service, who I refer

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to, they do arts awards with a lot of families, and they do lots of other

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initiatives as well up there, and they've actually introducing a marketplace

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this year for homemade families to come and find out not just what they

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do in the museums, but what other cultural offers there are in the area.

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So they're doing a lot there.

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And then the smaller service I spoke about is based in the New Forest in

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England, New Forest Heritage Centre.

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And they've piloting a programme which will grow into a regular group really

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for them, so that's very exciting.

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And then there are other places doing lots of great work, so in Coventry, Culture

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Coventry, they are doing lots of work around STEM, so Science, Technology,

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Engineering and Maths and they've taken a bit of a different slant on it, so

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it isn't just about workshops for the children, it's also about continual

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professional development for the parent carers, in the same way you might offer

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teachers CPD they are rolling out CPD for adults so that they can learn with

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the children and help them to delve into probably more advanced science stuff,

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which as a parent you might not know.

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So really using the expertise that, that they have in the museum to

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support their learning in ways which you might not do with the school.

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Yeah, I was wondering about that because I was wondering what support

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there is out there for parents because this is a bewildering time for parents

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navigating why your son or daughter may be choosing not to attend school or

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can't go to school for various reasons.

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So are there any examples of museums that support the

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parents as well as the students?

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Yeah, as I said, I think this, the whole concept about children with

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barriers to education isn't as widely considered in museums at the moment.

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And I think there really would be room for more emotional mental health support.

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So this crosses over a lot of boundaries between learning, and well being.

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So there's definitely room for more work around that with the families, even just

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saying, come here on this day in the week, and there'll be a cup of tea for

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you and other people experiencing similar.

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I mean, personally, I wish that had been around when we were struggling.

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Families will feel very isolated and unaware that other people are going

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through the same thing quite often.

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So if there was a way for museums to offer that space and time for

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people to connect, I think that would be a really valuable thing.

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Yeah, so it'd be nice to see that happening.

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There is a project, a very new project that's just happened, again in one of

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the Tyne and Wear museums, where they've worked with an education psychologist to

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work with children specifically around barriers to education, and they created

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their own exhibition about how it felt to not be able to go to school which

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sounds so very powerful, and just, the direction that I'd love to see more

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work happening because it is becoming, unfortunately, quite a common experience.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Have you had any opportunities yourself to lead any sessions?

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Have you done any facilitating or research in this area personally?

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Yeah, so as well as looking at the kind of bigger, wider, this what's going on, I

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have been challenging myself as well and doing some smaller scale work with groups.

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So I, as part of the consultation days, I worked with a particular

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home ed group And I went out to them with some outreach activities

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based around individual objects.

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I started to learn about slow looking and we did some see, think,

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wonder practice and various creative responses to the objects afterwards.

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So we did that.

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out at their group and then brought them into the museum and also

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carried out some slow looking there with a particular artwork.

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And we did the same thing with families that weren't already grouped.

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So this is where I was really interested in seeing about the impact we could make.

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So we had it more as an open day drop in for individual families

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that might not already have those networks of support around them.

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And again, we did some See, Think, Wonder activities in one of the art galleries

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and I was so impressed with how those sessions went, because I was a bit unsure,

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really, about the whole stopping and looking slowly but each group did it,

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they stopped for a number of minutes, and they looked closely at this particular

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painting, and they noticed, and they discussed, and then they had wonderings

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after that And it was a really valuable thing to do, it's just a great way to get

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people talking, connecting, sparking ideas for more things they'd like to learn.

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Because the important thing for this audience really is self directed learning,

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and that's where museums are really useful because they're basically massive treasure

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troves of objects, expertise, resources.

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It's all there somewhere in a museum and our job I feel as a facilitator,

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professional, curator, whatever role you've got, is to provide a way

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into that treasure trove and just say, look, did you see that there?

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And then let them do the rest.

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And it was lovely to see the sparks go off

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And some of the feedback I got was really grateful for the opportunity to discuss.

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Rather than to do written work or a project, their child learnt

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best by looking and discussing, and that's how they wanted to be.

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They didn't want to be sat at a desk and writing a paragraph about it.

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We mustn't forget it seems quite simple things that we're offering sometimes,

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but they are really important and can make all the difference to somebody

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being engaged or completely switched off.

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So, yeah.

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Bringing in those elements of interaction, participation, encouraging

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discussion, and also slow looking is so important because the student becomes

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the center rather than it being all centered around the teacher themselves.

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I'm fascinated how you got to the idea of of using slow looking can you

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explain your thinking about why you thought slow looking might be a great

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approach to use in these programs?

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Yeah, I didn't know a lot about it before I started my research, but as part of

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my funded programme, I just thought this could be a really good tool for me to have

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as a way of using any museum, any object, any artwork with a group of people.

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It just seemed a very open ended and very accessible technique to use and it

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is, and I'm really glad that I did it.

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did learn about it.

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And for me, the biggest learning curve is having been trained as a curator

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who is expected to know everything and usually you feel like you need to tell

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people everything about an object.

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As a curator, that's how I was trained, but to move from that to being more of

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a facilitator where you say it doesn't really matter what I think, well no,

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I'm not the expert, what do we think about this and working together, but

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that initial being able to let go of that control and that feeling like that

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you're supposed to know was strange, but very freeing and I think that can be a

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factor for museums really, that, a bit of a fear factor of, with schools, with

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a school group visiting for example, there's a lot of control, you know

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what to expect most schools operate similarly, you know that the children

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will sit and listen and the teachers are there to help them if they don't.

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So when.

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You have a group of home educated children.

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It is very different to that.

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They learn differently.

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They might not sit down.

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That doesn't mean they're not engaging.

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It just is the way they learn is very different.

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Letting go of control and being okay with that is something to learn to do, I think.

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And that's okay.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I agree with that.

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So how can museums better support children who are who are

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facing barriers to education?

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What steps can they take to make their offerings more inclusive?

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Yeah, so I think to be more inclusive, museums don't necessarily have

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to develop brand new programs.

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They just need to look at initially what they already have at their

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fingertips and potentially repackage that, or extend a deliberate invitation

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to come and use certain things.

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Particularly thinking about children with barriers to going to school.

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A lot of them may well be going through a bit of burnout, have a bit of trauma

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about going to places a lot of kids can barely leave their own houses.

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So I really think it's important to consider the digital

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offers that are in museums.

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Lot was developed in lockdown during the COVID pandemic that perhaps

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could be looked at again And just reinvigorated and so that people are

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aware it's there and can still use that.

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So I think considering our digital spaces as well as our

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physical spaces is important.

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Also thinking about partnership working.

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So as I mentioned, there was a museum working with educational

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psychologists who really helped them to get in touch with families going

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through challenges with attendance.

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You could also look at hospital education provisions and other alternative

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provisions as a way of reaching out to those particular families.

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Also, I think it's really important to think about language that you use

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so that everyone does feel welcome.

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I probably would never have said that I was a home educator, to be honest at

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the time, I didn't even think about what I was, I just knew it was difficult,

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and I wish now that I'd reached out to some of the home education community,

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because they'd have been fantastic support but I didn't think to, and

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similarly, If I'd more readily been able to tap into things that museums were

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doing, that would also have been useful.

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So think whenever you are doing something, think about your language think about

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elective home education, but also the other children are out of school.

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So people might be doing something called flex schooling, where they're

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on roll at school part of the week, but not the rest of the week.

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Maybe on part time timetables and so on.

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And I think it's also really important to consider the awareness and empathy

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that you have as an organisation.

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So quite often, education, learning team staff, May have an awareness will

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educate themselves on this audience, but it also needs to work right through

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from senior leadership down to front of house so that when people come through

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the door, they have a good welcome.

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And that senior leadership do support the programs that are going on.

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It is difficult because usually home education isn't

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a key performance indicator.

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Like a school visit might be.

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It may not be as big a money generator as a school as it might be, but

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it is still very vital to offer that service and that access to

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our culture and heritage to people learning who might not be in school.

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Yeah, well said.

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What tips would you give museum educators, learning practitioners

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who are listening, who are looking to engage home educating families and

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children facing barriers to education?

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So, first of all, just be transparent, be honest, just be straightforward.

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This is what we can do, you can come and use it and they will appreciate that.

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Make more of what you already offer, use word of mouth, make your

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offers obvious on your website.

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Yeah, talking, communicating is important.

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But also thinking about the element of choice so that when this audience visits

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they can just decide what they want to do.

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So even if it's a particular day for a home educating audience, you might

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want to offer self led elements as well as led workshops so they can decide

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what fits their skills, their agenda for that day, and their interests.

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You're not tied to a curriculum, which is a really great opportunity

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for museums to use all of their collections and not be constrained by

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that, having to do Victorians or Romans or Tudors or whatever it might be.

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You can really work to the strengths of your collections and your expertise

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and that will be enough to engage curious minds that come through your

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and practical points to think about.

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Remembering that you really are doing proficient for the whole family.

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So the learner will come with siblings, with their adults or even grandparents.

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So you need to have thought of all of them when you're designing your offer.

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And catering for the early years, if you need to so that

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everyone can learn together.

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There's some great tips there, I think and also if anyone is considering doing

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work in this area, I'm sure you can reach out to Nicky and we'll have some

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contact details at the end, but I'm sure you've got plans for the future.

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What are you working on now?

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What's next?

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Yes, I do have plans.

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I am intending to create a toolkit for museums and galleries so that

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they can use some of what I've learned through my funded projects

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and my work with the families just to do more of this work themselves.

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So I want to provide the ethical and the business case for doing this work and

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examples of good practice and how they can do small changes and bigger programs

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just to encourage home ed and children learning outside of school to use what we

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have to offer in museums and galleries.

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I also intend to continue my own practice, my own delivery and build

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on what I've learned about thinking routines, questioning practices

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Looking forward to using some of the new ideas from your book and working

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with the local contacts that I have.

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Yeah, so I think that's really important for me to keep engaging with collections

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and keeping my feet on the ground as well as spreading the word to the wider sector.

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Well, what will be really interesting to hear is How many people get in touch

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with you after this podcast episode airs all around the world and see

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whether there's similar initiatives going on in other countries and

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really seeing what kind of provision other countries have for this area.

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But I wanted to say thank you for the work that you're doing and

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for raising awareness around this particular area, Because it still

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flies relatively under the radar I think there's a few assumptions and

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maybe a misunderstanding about what barriers children face to education.

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So, I really appreciate the work that you've been doing and spreading

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awareness and how museums and cultural organizations can help.

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so if you could share with our listeners, how can people reach out

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to you, find out more about your work?

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I would love it if people would visit my website and have a look at

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some of the reports that I've done.

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So that is at museumlearningworks.

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co.

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uk.

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You'll find links there to the different reports, and also my email address

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if you'd like to get in touch, really love to hear from you, especially if

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you're interested in contributing to the toolkits and sharing any practice

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that you've been doing yourselves.

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Brilliant.

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We'll share all of that in the show notes, but thank you, Nicky, for coming onto

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the show and talking about your work.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's been great.

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So a huge thank you to Nicky for joining me on the podcast today.

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Be sure to check out the show notes for more about the

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incredible work she's doing.

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And if you've enjoyed this episode, or if any episode in our back catalogue

Speaker: 00:31:14

has resonated with you, please consider supporting The Art Engager.

Speaker: 00:31:19

You can now join us on Patreon with a simple monthly subscription

Speaker: 00:31:24

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Speaker: 00:31:26

Thank you to all our new supporters.

Speaker: 00:31:28

Your generosity makes a difference.

Speaker: 00:31:31

Finally, don't forget to visit my website to learn more about The Art Engager book.

Speaker: 00:31:37

Available now wherever books are sold.

Speaker: 00:31:41

That's it for this episode and for this year.

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Thank you so much for tuning in.

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See you in 2025.