Episode 146

Slow looking in sacred spaces: Antwerp's church-based Slow Art Day movement

In this episode, host Claire Bown talks with Tonia Dhaese and Armand Storck about the church-based Slow Art Day movement in Antwerp. We explore why churches provide ideal settings for slow looking and how the architecture, lighting, and atmosphere naturally encourage contemplation.

For Slow Art Day 2025 (April 5), listeners will learn about events across four Antwerp churches, including St. Paul's exhibition featuring masterpieces by Rubens and Van Dyck displayed at eye level - a rare opportunity to get up close with artworks normally hung four metres high.

Tonia and Armand share practical advice for churches interested in joining the movement, emphasising the importance of training guides to facilitate rather than lecture, maintaining flexibility in approaches, and creating inclusive experiences where no prior knowledge is required.

Whether you're interested in slow looking techniques or considering how your own church might participate in Slow Art Day, this conversation offers lots of new insights into creating meaningful art experiences in sacred spaces.

The Art Engager is written and presented by Claire Bown. Editing is by Matt Jacobs and Claire Bown. Music by Richard Bown. Support the show on Patreon and find more resources at thinkingmuseum.com

SHOWNOTES

SUPPORT THE SHOW with a simple monthly subscription on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheArtEngager

MKA website: https://mkantwerpen.be/

St Paul's Church (Sint Paulus Kerk) Antwerp: https://www.sintpaulusantwerpen.be/en/

Tonia Dhaese, Coordinator of Monumental Churches Antwerp (MKA), Tonia.Dhaese@antwerpen.be

Antwerp’s Church-Based Slow Art Day Movement - https://www.slowartday.com/antwerps-church-based-slow-art-day-movement/

‘The Art Engager: Reimagining Guided Experiences in Museums‘ is now available worldwide through your favourite online platforms and retailers. Buy it here on Amazon.com: https://tinyurl.com/buytheartengager

The Art Engager book website: https://www.theartengager.com/

Transcript
Claire Bown:

Hello and welcome to the Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Brown.

Claire Bown:

I'm here to share techniques and tools to help you engage with your audience

Claire Bown:

and bring art objects and ideas to life.

Claire Bown:

So let's dive into this week's show.

Claire Bown:

Hello and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager.

Claire Bown:

Today I'm chatting with Tonia Dhaese and Armand Storck about experiencing

Claire Bown:

art in sacred spaces through Antwerp's, church-based Slow Art Day movement.

Claire Bown:

But before we dive in, if you're enjoying my book, the Art

Claire Bown:

Engager, I'd love your support.

Claire Bown:

Please consider leaving a review on Amazon or sharing a photo

Claire Bown:

of your copy on social media.

Claire Bown:

And don't forget to tag me in.

Claire Bown:

I really love to see the art engager out and about in the world.

Claire Bown:

Now for those of you who aren't familiar with Slow Art Day, it's an international

Claire Bown:

event that encourages people to experience art differently by slowing down and

Claire Bown:

spending more time with fewer works.

Claire Bown:

And importantly as we'll discover today, this movement isn't limited

Claire Bown:

to traditional museum spaces, nor is it limited to art either.

Claire Bown:

So Tonia and Armand have been instrumental in bringing slow art data

Claire Bown:

and works churches, creating unique opportunities for visitors to engage with

Claire Bown:

religious art in its original context.

Claire Bown:

This year's Slow Art Day takes place on Saturday, April the

Claire Bown:

fifth, 2025, and Antwerp's Historic Churches will once again open

Claire Bown:

their doors for this special event.

Claire Bown:

So in today's conversation, we'll explore what makes churches particularly

Claire Bown:

suited for slow looking, how the movement has grown across Antwerp and

Claire Bown:

further afield, and what visitors can expect at a church-based slow art day.

Claire Bown:

We'll hear about their techniques for helping visitors engage with religious

Claire Bown:

art and their approaches to welcoming both art enthusiasts and religious

Claire Bown:

visitors, and also their exciting plans for this year's Slow Art Day.

Claire Bown:

We'll also learn about St. Pauluskerk special presentation this year,

Claire Bown:

featuring artworks in custom frames and get practical advice

Claire Bown:

for churches anywhere interested in joining the Slow Art Day movement.

Claire Bown:

This conversation offers valuable insights into creating meaningful

Claire Bown:

art experiences in sacred spaces.

Claire Bown:

Enjoy.

Claire Bown:

Hi, Tonia, and Armand.

Claire Bown:

Welcome to the Art Engager Podcast.

Tonia Dhaese:

Hi.

Tonia Dhaese:

Hi, Claire.

Tonia Dhaese:

Hello.

Armand Storck:

Hello, Claire.

Claire Bown:

Hi.

Claire Bown:

So Tonia, I'm gonna start with you.

Claire Bown:

Could you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Tonia Dhaese:

Sure.

Tonia Dhaese:

I am the coordinator of the partnership of the five Historic and Monumental

Tonia Dhaese:

Churches in Antwerp, which are at the same time the five tourist churches.

Tonia Dhaese:

They are all located in the city center and they're also still active

Tonia Dhaese:

Catholic churches with celebrations of mass and other religious activities.

Tonia Dhaese:

I'm also a city employee of the culture department and was seconded six years

Tonia Dhaese:

ago as coordinator of the network.

Tonia Dhaese:

And before that I worked at several Antwerp museums.

Tonia Dhaese:

And my role with the churches is to advise, to help and inspire

Tonia Dhaese:

them to further optimize the accessibility of their heritage.

Tonia Dhaese:

So in other words, to make their heritage more attractive and open to everyone.

Tonia Dhaese:

And for welcoming and public accessibility the churches mainly

Tonia Dhaese:

rely on very passionate volunteers.

Tonia Dhaese:

So those volunteers do not have as much professional expertise as in museums and,

Tonia Dhaese:

together with the churches and with the volunteers, I have set up specific public

Tonia Dhaese:

programs to reach new target groups.

Tonia Dhaese:

For example, three guided tours for foreign speaking newcomers, learning

Tonia Dhaese:

Dutch, and a quest for families with children during summer holidays.

Tonia Dhaese:

And recently together with Armand slow art in those churches that

Tonia Dhaese:

were not yet familiar with slow art.

Claire Bown:

Thank you for introducing yourself.

Claire Bown:

Armand.

Claire Bown:

Could you do the same?

Armand Storck:

Sure.

Armand Storck:

I'm one of the hundred volunteers that work for St. Paul's Church in Antwerp.

Armand Storck:

What I'm doing there, I'm organizing, or I'm co-organizing the events

Armand Storck:

that take place such as exhibitions lectures and things like that.

Armand Storck:

All of the volunteers are all retired, which gives us a lot of

Armand Storck:

freedom to do whatever we like, free of stress and with 100% enthusiasm.

Armand Storck:

There's a large number of people in St. Paul's organizing the

Armand Storck:

opening of the church, welcoming and greeting the visitors.

Armand Storck:

And I am one of them.

Armand Storck:

And they make it possible that the church is open to the public

Armand Storck:

every day of the year during the, tourist period and every afternoon.

Armand Storck:

So that gives a lot of possibilities to visit our beautiful church.

Armand Storck:

And we joined the slow art movement.

Armand Storck:

And Slow looking and churches, as I will explain later, are

Armand Storck:

really a match made in heaven.

Claire Bown:

Thanks for that Armand and for explaining a little bit

Claire Bown:

both of you about your roles.

Claire Bown:

I've invited you here today because I came to see you in January.

Claire Bown:

I was in Antwerp and I heard about the slow art movement that's been

Claire Bown:

going on in churches in Antwerp, and I wanted to find out more.

Claire Bown:

And Armand, you very kindly gave me a wonderful tour of the St.

Claire Bown:

Paul's Kirk, the St. Paul's Church.

Claire Bown:

So it's always a pleasure.

Armand Storck:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

Thank you.

Claire Bown:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

And you were a wonderful guide.

Claire Bown:

And we talked quite a lot about your slow art day experience that you've had.

Claire Bown:

Before we get into the details of slow art in Antwerp churches.

Claire Bown:

Perhaps we could start by exploring what makes churches particularly suited

Claire Bown:

to slow looking and contemplation?

Armand Storck:

Yeah, that's a good question because that is in

Armand Storck:

fact a reason that we are trying to involve more and more churches

Armand Storck:

because they are extremely suitable to organize slow looking sessions.

Armand Storck:

Maybe that's a personal feeling, but time runs almost noticeably slower in

Armand Storck:

churches than in the world outside.

Armand Storck:

Whenever you enter a church, you immediately feel the difference between

Armand Storck:

the church and the outside street, or even you feel the difference with a museum.

Armand Storck:

We are on the boundary between the everyday life outside and

Armand Storck:

what is happening in a church.

Armand Storck:

The air, the light, time, seems to run thinner, slower than outside.

Armand Storck:

So peace and spirituality is likely to be experienced into a church

Armand Storck:

from the moment you will enter it.

Armand Storck:

And I think.

Armand Storck:

It can be crowded in a church as well.

Armand Storck:

So the key for organizing slow art in a church is to separate the busy

Armand Storck:

tourist experience and maybe look for a location in the church that

Armand Storck:

is suitable to organize slow art.

Tonia Dhaese:

I agree.

Tonia Dhaese:

And, but I think there is fundamentally not a very big

Tonia Dhaese:

difference because religious arts can also be seen in museums.

Tonia Dhaese:

But as you said, a big difference lies in the context, in the

Tonia Dhaese:

place, in the atmosphere.

Tonia Dhaese:

That invites more contemplation and slowing down in the church.

Tonia Dhaese:

Yeah.

Armand Storck:

Yeah, that is a big difference with a

Armand Storck:

museum, you're right on that.

Claire Bown:

Absolutely, and I think some of the things you

mentioned there:

the environment.

mentioned there:

When you enter a church, you've got the wonderful architecture, the

mentioned there:

space, you get the light through the windows, you get that sort of acoustic

mentioned there:

experience from the high ceilings.

mentioned there:

They all affect how we experience the space as well.

Armand Storck:

Absolutely.

Armand Storck:

Yep.

Claire Bown:

I think another thing, that I think is quite interesting

Claire Bown:

is the accessibility as well.

Claire Bown:

These spaces are or have been centers for community life for centuries.

Claire Bown:

They're situated, with community around them.

Claire Bown:

So perhaps sometimes they might even feel less intimidating than perhaps going into

Claire Bown:

an art museum And maybe that will help them to potentially reach audiences who

Claire Bown:

perhaps might not typically engage in art viewing or art appreciation activities.

Armand Storck:

You're right.

Armand Storck:

On the accessibility, Fortunately, we've got very large gates with our church.

Armand Storck:

So when we throw them open, I think it automatically gives

Armand Storck:

a very welcoming effect.

Claire Bown:

Yeah, absolutely.

Claire Bown:

And that element of time that you referred to as well, that time

Claire Bown:

seems to go by more slowly when you enter a church environment.

Claire Bown:

I love that idea as well.

Tonia Dhaese:

Sometimes there is also music in the church, very

Tonia Dhaese:

quiet relaxing music It helps also for the atmosphere of slowing down.

Claire Bown:

Sure.

Claire Bown:

So you've both got involved with Slow art days over the years.

Claire Bown:

So perhaps you could rewind time a little bit.

Claire Bown:

How and when did you first get involved with Slow Art Day?

Tonia Dhaese:

Okay, so I was first introduced to Slow Art and Slow Art Day

Tonia Dhaese:

when I worked in a museum in Antwerp.

Tonia Dhaese:

It was the Museum Mayer van den Bergh Museum.

Tonia Dhaese:

It's an art museum.

Tonia Dhaese:

They have been participating in Slow Art Day for years.

Tonia Dhaese:

Just as have other museums in the city.

Tonia Dhaese:

But when about two years ago, Armand suggested that other,

Tonia Dhaese:

Antwerp churches than Saint Pauls also participate in Slow Art Day.

Tonia Dhaese:

I became actively involved

Armand Storck:

You mentioned  Museum Mayer van den Bergh . I think they

Armand Storck:

were the pioneers in Antwerp yes.

Armand Storck:

Together with, that's right.

Armand Storck:

St. Paul Church.

Armand Storck:

If I remember well I think we joined the project in 2017.

Armand Storck:

And from the beginning, in fact, we were confronted with what the French, so

Armand Storck:

beautifully called l'embarras du choix.

Armand Storck:

Which of the 1,400 pieces of art in our church would we pick out

Armand Storck:

to present during slow art day?

Armand Storck:

So in fact it's very easy for us.

Armand Storck:

We just look around we think what would be a very interesting subject or where

Armand Storck:

can we place people to look at it?

Armand Storck:

And we just start.

Claire Bown:

And you mentioned there Antwerp as, as quite, let's say an

Claire Bown:

epicenter of slow art day activities.

Claire Bown:

So, how has the church- based slow movement grown in Antwerp since you

Claire Bown:

began, you said you began Armand in 2017.

Claire Bown:

What's happened since then?

Armand Storck:

Well, in the beginning we started with St.

Armand Storck:

Paul's as the only church.

Armand Storck:

We had a number of Slow Art Days that we attended to until COVID and

Armand Storck:

And after that I ,thought, well.

Armand Storck:

St. Paul's is the only church.

Armand Storck:

Why not invite more churches?

Armand Storck:

And that meant that I had contact with Tonia, who is the coordinator of

Armand Storck:

the monumental churches in Antwerp.

Armand Storck:

And then it started growing from there.

Tonia Dhaese:

Oh, yes.

Tonia Dhaese:

And so we informed your, the colleagues of the other churches there about

Tonia Dhaese:

what slow art is and we asked them, who was interested in participating.

Tonia Dhaese:

And then we also ask which guides were interested in facilitating slow art.

Tonia Dhaese:

And Arman d, you gave a demo for the guides and I invited a teacher,

Tonia Dhaese:

She teaches Dutch for newcomers in Antwerp, so new Dutch speakers.

Tonia Dhaese:

And she has experience with visual thinking strategies.

Tonia Dhaese:

So I ask her to give demonstrations as well.

Tonia Dhaese:

And I made it clear that there are different ways or different methods

Tonia Dhaese:

to facilitate slow arts, slow looking,

Tonia Dhaese:

Some combine it with mindfulness, meditation, poetry or based

Tonia Dhaese:

on a specific methodology.

Tonia Dhaese:

So every church has a freedom to decide which method suited them best.

Tonia Dhaese:

That was very important to tell them.

Tonia Dhaese:

And

Tonia Dhaese:

These demo and information sessions are indispensable because facilitating slow

Tonia Dhaese:

art, slow art session is a bit more difficult than it seems at first sight.

Armand Storck:

Yeah.

Armand Storck:

You're right on that training the guides is very important.

Armand Storck:

But it didn't stop with training our own guides, Tonia took the

Armand Storck:

initiative to contact the monumental churches in other cities in Belgium.

Armand Storck:

For instance, in Gent and Leuven they have shown interest to join Slow Art Day.

Armand Storck:

Maybe not this year, but I think we have a good chance that they will join next year.

Armand Storck:

And these guides have already some experience with slow art sessions

Armand Storck:

So it's just an easy step for them.

Armand Storck:

The guides in the churches of Mechelen they are the same guides in the

Armand Storck:

churches, as they are in the museums.

Armand Storck:

So for them it's very easy to make it one operation that includes

Armand Storck:

all the visitors to the city.

Armand Storck:

So they are very keen to continue talking to us and we

Armand Storck:

will soon be meeting with them.

Armand Storck:

It looks like a good opportunity to expand.

Claire Bown:

Yeah, I love this.

Claire Bown:

It started in one city and then is spreading out all over Belgium and

Claire Bown:

we're hoping further afield as well.

Claire Bown:

And when you mention training there as well, I think it's super important to,

Claire Bown:

to think about because when you are facilitating these slow experiences.

Claire Bown:

You mentioned that it's much more difficult than it seems.

Claire Bown:

And quite often it appears that the facilitator is very relaxed and

Claire Bown:

they're not actually doing much.

Claire Bown:

I always like to use the analogy of a swan, very calm and graceful on the

Claire Bown:

surface, and then underneath, feet are moving very fast to keep things moving.

Claire Bown:

And you're spinning plates a lot, there's an awful lot going

Claire Bown:

on and a lot to think about

Armand Storck:

No, that's correct.

Armand Storck:

We call it an an iceberg which is under the water for 95%, and that is the total

Armand Storck:

knowledge of a guide and the 5% of the iceberg that is sticking out that is

Armand Storck:

what he's saying to the visitors, to the people joining a slower art session.

Armand Storck:

But what gives him a lot of confidence in what he's saying is the knowledge that

Armand Storck:

is under the water that is not visible.

Claire Bown:

Yeah, I love that.

Claire Bown:

It's such a good analogy.

Claire Bown:

So you must have faced some challenges perhaps in expanding

Claire Bown:

to lots of different locations.

Tonia Dhaese:

Yeah, sure.

Tonia Dhaese:

Well, as I said, the museums have their own way in, in dealing with

Tonia Dhaese:

slow art, and I have noticed that every church also has a a slightly

Tonia Dhaese:

different approach, a different vision of slow art in the church.

Tonia Dhaese:

For example, one church focuses more than the other on the Catholic aspects.

Tonia Dhaese:

So we explain in the demo sessions that it's okay to go deeper into the religious

Tonia Dhaese:

context, into the meaning or who the artist was, but preferably at the end of

Tonia Dhaese:

the session so that the participants can look at the artwork with an open mind.

Tonia Dhaese:

It's very important.

Tonia Dhaese:

And something else that struck me is that many of our guides.

Tonia Dhaese:

Need to get out of their comfort zone.

Tonia Dhaese:

They're used to sharing a lot of art, historical knowledge with

Tonia Dhaese:

the group, and often it's still a bit too much one way traffic.

Tonia Dhaese:

So that's also why I'm very happy that we're now getting acquainted with slow

Tonia Dhaese:

art and slow looking with a different way of guiding that is more facilitating

Tonia Dhaese:

and more interacting with the group.

Armand Storck:

In fact, what we are trying to achieve with our guides

Armand Storck:

is that they don't guide, that they don't do as they usually do.

Armand Storck:

In fact, it's their turn now to listen to what visitors are saying and

Armand Storck:

then react to that instead of giving their usual talk to to the people.

Armand Storck:

And

Claire Bown:

it is a completely different way of working, isn't it?

Claire Bown:

It's like flipping the script so that the emphasis, is on the people

Claire Bown:

there, the participants in your group.

Claire Bown:

And it's less on what you have to say as the expert or as the guide.

Claire Bown:

Even though you can share your knowledge in small Chunks and

Claire Bown:

appropriate moments as well.

Armand Storck:

Correct.

Claire Bown:

I'm interested Armand in collaboration, so how do you collaborate

Claire Bown:

with other churches that are participating to create this citywide experience?

Armand Storck:

Well, fortunately we've got the organization, which

Armand Storck:

assembles the five monumental churches and of which Tonia is the coordinator.

Armand Storck:

And she took the initiative to organize the demo sessions.

Armand Storck:

for all the guides who are interested from these five churches.

Armand Storck:

It's maybe a good moment to say that a lot of these guides, they do not

Armand Storck:

only guide one particular church, but they have got a training to do the

Armand Storck:

cathedral and one more church and so on.

Armand Storck:

So what Tony has been doing is calling the guides together for demo sessions

Armand Storck:

and also for a training about how to deal with visitors during Slow Art Day.

Armand Storck:

Also the external communication, we try to bundle that a little bit.

Armand Storck:

So the external communication, the internal communication emphasizes the

Armand Storck:

fact that it's not only one church, but there are the five main Antwerp churches

Armand Storck:

that are offering that experience.

Claire Bown:

Thank you for that.

Claire Bown:

You mentioned visitors there, I like to move on to thinking

Claire Bown:

about the visitor experience.

Claire Bown:

So what can first time visitors expect at a church on slow art day?

Claire Bown:

How does it work?

Armand Storck:

Well, a session in a church usually takes 20 minutes during

Armand Storck:

which people look at one or more works of art in one particular church.

Armand Storck:

After a short individual introduction which is solely between the artwork

Armand Storck:

and the visitor and they can look at it as long as they wish.

Armand Storck:

They then join one of the guides and share their experience with

Armand Storck:

the guide and other visitors.

Armand Storck:

At the end of the session, the guide is free to do his usual thing or

Armand Storck:

not, depending on the visitor's wish.

Armand Storck:

If they want to have more information about biblical references or about the

Armand Storck:

symbols on a painting, then the guide can go deeper into that, of course.

Armand Storck:

But the way how to do this is not the same in every church.

Armand Storck:

We give a lot of freedom to a guide.

Armand Storck:

He needs to be, or she needs to be comfortable in organizing the session.

Armand Storck:

And once the guide feels confident about his method or her method, the

Armand Storck:

enthusiasm will reflect on the visitors.

Armand Storck:

The very important is that churches communicate well beforehand

Armand Storck:

what the visitors can expect.

Armand Storck:

So we do that in St. Paul's.

Armand Storck:

We do that on our social media, such as Facebook and and Instagram that visitors

Armand Storck:

will have already an idea what to expect.

Armand Storck:

For instance, one of our guides in St. Andrews is the parish priest.

Armand Storck:

It is evident that visitors who would like to come and follow his

Armand Storck:

sessions will probably be more interested in the religious aspect

Armand Storck:

of that particular piece of art.

Armand Storck:

So how to fill it in depends completely on the guide, but the communication and

Armand Storck:

what visitors are expecting about Slow Art that we communicate clearly beforehand,

Claire Bown:

Yeah, it's great that you have that flexibility

Claire Bown:

under the kind of umbrella of all the churches that is correct.

Claire Bown:

Working together.

Claire Bown:

Do you use specific techniques?

Claire Bown:

How do you help visitors to engage with the artworks that they

Claire Bown:

might be seeing in the church?

Armand Storck:

Oh, absolutely.

Armand Storck:

I think we all go for a moment of reflection putting the visitors

Armand Storck:

in front of the artwork and look in silence for a certain time.

Armand Storck:

I think the minimum is one to two minutes, but if they wish to look at it

Armand Storck:

for five or 10 minutes, it's up to them.

Armand Storck:

And then they come to the guide and share with the guide what they have experienced.

Armand Storck:

And the experience can go further than just looking at it.

Armand Storck:

And for instance, We'd like to ask if you were into that painting for

Armand Storck:

instance, what would you smell?

Armand Storck:

What would you hear in that painting?

Armand Storck:

So it's a very interactive way of talking to the visitors after they

Armand Storck:

have looked at the work of art.

Armand Storck:

What I liked about the demo one week ago is that we made little groups

Armand Storck:

of two people and one pretended not to be able to see, and he was

Armand Storck:

asking questions to the other one.

Armand Storck:

What do you see?

Armand Storck:

The other one had to give a detailed description of what was to be seen.

Armand Storck:

And then you experience how difficult it is to explain to someone who

Armand Storck:

can't see what is happening.

Claire Bown:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

And you are reminding me of Radio Bart, at the Royal Museum of Fine

Claire Bown:

Arts which we also did a podcast episode around a year or so ago.

Claire Bown:

Okay.

Claire Bown:

Tonia, I'd like to turn to you because we've talked a

Claire Bown:

little bit about accessibility.

Claire Bown:

And we've talked a little bit about some participants may be preferring

Claire Bown:

a deeper religious approach and some preferring a more secular approach.

Claire Bown:

So how do you make both art lovers and religious visitors feel welcome.

Tonia Dhaese:

Okay, first of all, by making no distinction between them.

Tonia Dhaese:

And there are also participants who have no prior knowledge at all, neither

Tonia Dhaese:

in the field of art or religion.

Tonia Dhaese:

So it's very important, I think, to give a warm welcome, a warm introduction and

Tonia Dhaese:

say that there are no wrong answers.

Tonia Dhaese:

And that there can be a deeper discussion about the meaning of the work at

Tonia Dhaese:

the end of the session if they wish.

Claire Bown:

and do you offer anything specifically for children and families?

Tonia Dhaese:

Yes.

Tonia Dhaese:

In St. Andrews Church they have a specific program for children.

Tonia Dhaese:

The guide or facilitator lets the children look very carefully at a pulpit.

Tonia Dhaese:

It's a very beautiful wooden pulpit with life-sized figures.

Tonia Dhaese:

And then she asks them all kinds of questions what they see, and she

Tonia Dhaese:

makes a link to their own experiences.

Tonia Dhaese:

and the children are also allowed to go on the pulpit, which of course is very

Tonia Dhaese:

special for the children because normally only the priest can climb the pulpit.

Tonia Dhaese:

And next to the pulpit there is a small boat.

Tonia Dhaese:

St. Andrew was a fisherman, so the children can climb into the boat and.

Tonia Dhaese:

catch fish on paper and on those papers are written little tasks,

Tonia Dhaese:

for the children like drawing the pulpit, fantasizing, imitating the

Tonia Dhaese:

figures, making a puzzle, and so on.

Armand Storck:

A pulpit is a very thankful piece of furniture to organize

Armand Storck:

a slow art session around because it's huge, you can walk around it,

Armand Storck:

you don't have to sit in front of it.

Armand Storck:

It's a more active experience, let's say.

Armand Storck:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

Yeah, you can do the full 360 degrees absolutely.

Claire Bown:

Around as well.

Claire Bown:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

I'd love to move on to what you've got planned for 2025.

Claire Bown:

So this episode will go out two days before slow art Day 2025.

Claire Bown:

So what churches will join this year and are you planning any

Claire Bown:

special events for Slow Art Day?

Tonia Dhaese:

Okay, well there will be four churches just as last year.

Tonia Dhaese:

That is the St. Andrews with the fish, with the boat and the pulpit.

Tonia Dhaese:

St. James, St. Paul's, And also st. Charles Bar Romeo, when

Tonia Dhaese:

sufficient guides are available.

Armand Storck:

at least three and probably four.

Armand Storck:

Yeah, yeah.

Armand Storck:

And St. Paul Church will be in restoration during the next years,

Armand Storck:

but fortunately, we only need to close one section of the church at a time.

Armand Storck:

For this next year there will be an exhibition of two masterpieces And that

Armand Storck:

exhibition will open in the weekend of the 5th of April, so right on time to

Armand Storck:

organize a slow art session around it.

Claire Bown:

So tell me about the special event that is happening in

Claire Bown:

St. Paul's with the two artworks that you have in these special frames

Armand Storck:

Yeah.

Armand Storck:

The two artworks are, part of a series of 15 which are in our church since 1617.

Armand Storck:

So they are still visible at the same wall for which they have been painted.

Armand Storck:

Now 13 of the paintings, they will go into depot during the restoration, but

Armand Storck:

two of them which are at the same time the real masterpieces, will be visible

Armand Storck:

for the public in special designed cases with a glass in front of them.

Armand Storck:

The thing is that usually, they hang at the height of around four meters.

Armand Storck:

So it's very difficult to see the finest details on them.

Armand Storck:

But in the cases, they are now at eye level which will be a totally

Armand Storck:

different experience than than normally.

Armand Storck:

So you will be able to look at them at eye level.

Armand Storck:

The condition and the quality of the paintings is superb and the reduced

Armand Storck:

distance will enable the visitors to admire them in all detail.

Armand Storck:

One of the paintings is a flagellation.

Armand Storck:

It's a rather cruel subject, but most of the religious paintings are.

Armand Storck:

It's painted by Peter Paul Rubens.

Armand Storck:

And the other one is the first major work as an independent

Armand Storck:

master by Anthony Van Dyck.

Armand Storck:

So these are really two paintings, which you should not miss

Armand Storck:

whenever you visit Antwerp.

Claire Bown:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

And the opportunity to see them, at ground level, next to you, the same height as

Claire Bown:

you, up close, seeing all the details is a really special opportunity as Absolutely.

Claire Bown:

And Tonia how do you choose which art to highlight each year.

Claire Bown:

Obviously in the case of Armand and St. Paul's Church there was this restoration

Claire Bown:

work going on and they made the decision to, take these two specific artworks and

Claire Bown:

display them whilst the others were away.

Claire Bown:

How do you choose for the other churches, which art you're gonna choose from?

Tonia Dhaese:

Okay, well, I'll let the churches decide, but first of all, we look

Tonia Dhaese:

at it practically where is enough space?

Tonia Dhaese:

Where can people sit down?

Tonia Dhaese:

Because it can take 20 minutes or half an hour, and sitting down is

Tonia Dhaese:

more relaxing than just standing.

Tonia Dhaese:

So a work where there is space around it where people can sit

Tonia Dhaese:

and also where the light is good.

Tonia Dhaese:

As in the church, there's not so much light everywhere or you have

Tonia Dhaese:

to take in account the spotlights.

Tonia Dhaese:

And then the church decide themselves about works.

Tonia Dhaese:

and the churches try to change every year and To choose other works.

Tonia Dhaese:

And not the same as last year, yeah,

Armand Storck:

Yeah.

Claire Bown:

I'd like to look to the future.

Claire Bown:

So can you perhaps share some thoughts about what are your hopes,

Claire Bown:

your plans for church-based Slow Art Day in the years to come.

Armand Storck:

Well, my hopes are that more and more churches will

Armand Storck:

join us in Belgium to start with.

Armand Storck:

But as I said, whenever we spread the news that churches are extremely suitable

Armand Storck:

for organizing a Slow Art Day, I hope that more churches will join worldwide.

Tonia Dhaese:

And there is certainly interest from churches outside Antwerp,

Tonia Dhaese:

And two days ago I spoke with the chairman of the city Guides of Mechelen, and she

Tonia Dhaese:

would very much like to participate with her team this year Although the deadline

Tonia Dhaese:

is very short, we will see how it goes.

Tonia Dhaese:

But we realize it's a slow process also.

Tonia Dhaese:

But we take our time,

Armand Storck:

ah, we take our time.

Armand Storck:

That is a good one.

Armand Storck:

Churches like St. Paul's for instance, they exist for a very long time.

Armand Storck:

St. Paul's will celebrate its 750th anniversary next year.

Armand Storck:

We take our time, but we're used to it.

Tonia Dhaese:

Yeah.

Tonia Dhaese:

But not 750 years.

Armand Storck:

Little bit shorter.

Armand Storck:

Okay.

Claire Bown:

So from your experience of working with slow Art Day since 2017.

Claire Bown:

maybe you can give some advice to people listening who might want

Claire Bown:

to think about how their church might be able to join Slow Art Day.

Armand Storck:

Well first communicate internally with your own staff and people

Armand Storck:

and explain to them what slow art, in fact means and what it means for a church.

Armand Storck:

Explain to them that the church is extremely well suited for organizing a

Armand Storck:

Slow Art Day, organize demo sessions, training for the guides or the mentors.

Armand Storck:

Assure them that they are free in which methods they use to

Armand Storck:

achieve a good slow art session.

Armand Storck:

But do point out some general principles that is: slowly discover art together

Armand Storck:

with the visitors, with a very open mind.

Armand Storck:

Then communicate what is the target group?

Armand Storck:

How does it work?

Armand Storck:

How long does it take?

Armand Storck:

Do it in a very inclusive way.

Armand Storck:

No prior knowledge by the visitor about a piece of art or the location is required.

Armand Storck:

The visitors can just walk in and and join.

Claire Bown:

Perfect.

Claire Bown:

Some really useful advice there.

Claire Bown:

I would add to that.

Claire Bown:

Don't overthink it.

Claire Bown:

It seems like you've been learning as you go as well and getting that

Claire Bown:

experience from working with the guides themselves, from listening to

Claire Bown:

participants and really thinking about what you want to do every year as well.

Claire Bown:

My final question is always, how can people get in touch with

Claire Bown:

you and find out more about you?

Claire Bown:

Armand?

Armand Storck:

For St. Paul's, we've got our website, that's also in in English.

Armand Storck:

Then we are on Facebook and Instagram.

Armand Storck:

And people can send us an email on the info address which is also on the website.

Armand Storck:

So it's very easy to reach us and ask questions if needed.

Tonia Dhaese:

And you can find more information about all the five churches,

Tonia Dhaese:

tourist churches on the website of MKA.

Tonia Dhaese:

And the website is mkantwerpen.Be and you can also send me your mail and I will

Tonia Dhaese:

answer with pleasure if you have questions or other things to share with me.

Claire Bown:

Perfect.

Claire Bown:

We will include links in the show notes to those so that people can

Claire Bown:

get in contact with you and have a conversation about Slow Art Day.

Claire Bown:

That just leaves me a moment to say thank you to you both for joining me and I

Claire Bown:

hope Slow Art Day 2025 goes really well.

Armand Storck:

Thank you, Claire.

Claire Bown:

Thank you.

Claire Bown:

Bye-bye.

Claire Bown:

So a huge thank you to Tonia and Armand for sharing their insights with us today.

Claire Bown:

You can find out more about their work, slow Art Day and the church-based

Claire Bown:

slow art movement in the show notes.

Claire Bown:

If you've enjoyed this episode or if any of our previous episodes have

Claire Bown:

helped you in your work, please consider supporting the Art Engager on Patreon.

Claire Bown:

Your monthly subscription helps keep this content coming, and I'm

Claire Bown:

so grateful to all our supporters.

Claire Bown:

Don't forget to visit my website to learn more about the Art Engager book

Claire Bown:

available now, wherever books are sold.

Claire Bown:

That's all for today.

Claire Bown:

Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you next time.

Claire Bown:

Thank you for listening to the Art Engager podcast with me, Claire Bown.

Claire Bown:

You can find more art engagement resources by visiting my website,

Claire Bown:

thinkingmuseum.com, and you can also find me on Instagram.

Claire Bown:

At Thinking Museum, where I regularly share tips and tools on how to bring

Claire Bown:

art to life and engage your audience.

Claire Bown:

If you've enjoyed this episode, please share with others and subscribe to the

Claire Bown:

show on your podcast Player of Choice.

Claire Bown:

Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.

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